Caligula Urp
Posted by Moose on August 4th, 2007. Filed under: My Brain Needs a Drink.Whenever I mention the fast approaching Procreation Plan, the first question out of people’s mouths is inevitably, “Are you getting married?”
It’s a very good question. One that becomes increasingly awkward as I sit there and chew my cud because I don’t know how to answer.
My own feelings about marriage are somewhat confused. Overall, I’m a fan. My parents got divorced and his parents got divorced, and so it feels less “So long as we both shall live” and more “until we start throwing things at each other’s noggins on a regular basis.” Making a vow that might not be kept feels off-putting. But I like the idea, I like what it means. I like for better or worse and I like the emotional commitment it conveys. Marriage is not the binding contract it once was, but it feels hopeful. Like raising a glass of liquor and shouting, “Here’s to us and making it through!”
I’m on the tradition bus, I’m just sitting in the back and rolling my eyes and maybe doodling on the seat with a sharpie. I don’t want a big, fluffy wedding dress, but I do think I want to get married. But when the bus pulls up and asks if he wants a ride, he shouts back “No, thanks. I’ll just sit in these brambles and think about ways to subvert the dominant paradigm.”
I feel like I’m fighting a baboon with a paperclip. As in, vastly under-equipped. I really want to yank him onto the bus, but is that just because it would be easier for ME? Forcing him on board isn’t a good option, but neither do I want to join him in the brambles.
(By the way, this post might get really dull unless you too are considering having a kid without getting married. Anyone? Anyone? If you’re leaving now, I would love to hear your thoughts on marriage in the comments. I’m having trouble articulating the finer points and the internet is smart. Well, no. The internet is dumber than an open can of Pabst in a moving pick-up, but you, YOU’RE smart.)
The legalities of being a family without the state sanctioned marriage document is, frankly, a lot of work. Power of attorney, financial agreements, custody agreements, whatever you have to sign to get into the hospital room if someone crashes the car, and god only knows what else. Deciding who gets what in the event of a break-up feels very much like going through divorce proceedings while planning for your first child. I’m not much of a romantic, but I’m more romantic than THAT.
Aside from the financial issues and making sure everyone has legal rights to this as yet hypothetical child, I want that feeling of emotional commitment and I’m not sure what legal papers you can sign to get it. But can love really be defined by a legal document, marriage license or otherwise? AND HERE’S WHERE IT ALL GETS TRICKY.
My brain, it hurts.
But when we talk about this, this rather important question, we tend to get sidetracked. Tonight, we veered from paperwork and agreements to what the baby’s name should be. Last name and first, because if we don’t get married, it’s not a foregone conclusion. So we might just choose an entirely different last name and both do the paperwork. We like Pirate. Because you could introduce yourself to people by saying, “Hello! We’re the Pirates!” and is that not awesome? Wyatt Earp was in the running but the spelling would have to be changed. That’s where the conversation disintegrated into a race to find the most ridiculous name.
We settled on Caligula Urp.
This is why nothing ever gets decided around here.
August 4th, 2007 at 12:50 pm
I hate hassle. Things that would qualify as a “hassle” for me include 1) planning a wedding, and 2) having to answer stupid personal questions from people, to which often I don’t have a good answer. So in order to minimize the life-worth of hassle, I did get married (plus he asked), but we didn’t invite anyone else and kind of did whatever we wanted. I paid some company on St. John a few hundred dollars, they found a preacher-guy and got him to the beach, ordered and picked up a bunch of flowers for me to hold, scattered some rose petals around, picked us up, and took care of the paperwork afterward. We were back on our beach chairs half an hour afterward. You just have to decide together which of the two annoys you more (it was the stupid questions for me, obviously).
Nothing changed when we got married, because we were for all intents and purposes already married beforehand. I think that’s a good thing. I’m not planning on ever getting a divorce, but for me, getting married was promising to try my hardest, not promising something that would require my control of all circumstances of our lives.
August 4th, 2007 at 5:16 pm
In the words of Billy Corrigan (lead singer of Smashing Pumpkins) “Love is Suicide!”, Really… no not really, but that’s how I feel most of the time living way up north in VT where if you don’t hunt, you are not cool! There for I’m not cool!
But really mirage, what a truly beautiful thing when the two people right for each other find out that they can spend the rest of their lives together! But for the people who get married just to get married, hum!!! Waste of money time and emotions!
So, my self once almost being married, I look at it this way, “Im still looking” haha, no really, its something that you your self has to decide, and sit and think for a long time, but express your feelings to your mate and see what they truly think. It truly does take two to tango, and in this case, if one person half asses it! Then you are destined to failure!, all it is, is time!
So in closing,
Mirage is good,
Divorce is pour planning (personal opinion)
And a kid, hole different ball game, I’m 26, that’s the last thing I want now!
August 4th, 2007 at 6:10 pm
As someone whose child was nicknamed Toopweets in utero, Caligula Urp sounds mighty fine to me. While I’m of no use in terms of addressing your larger questions here, please feel free to consult me on topics relating to pregnancy/babies in general, particularly: “I’m in Labor…Why Am I STILL Barfing?” “We Have No Idea What We’re Doing; Why Did Anyone Allow Us To Leave The Hospital With This Child?” and my personal favorite, “Projectile Baby Poo: Who Knew?”
(All joking aside, it’s awesome. Seriously.)
August 4th, 2007 at 6:25 pm
I have to say that I’m a big fan of marriage, having done it myself. Not to be a big sap, but there’s something really nice about going forward to face the world as a highly symbolic team. I’m pretty practical, so I never really thought that getting married would make me feel any different about my relationship, but it really did. Sort of like, “This one, he’s mine. Really really mine.”
To be fair, though, I never had much angst over marriage, since my parents and my in-laws have stuck out their respective not-perfect-but-fought-for marriages for 30 some odd years each.
I shall close with two friend-stories that may or may not be helpful:
1. My friend J-Dog and her husband were planning on not getting married ever, for personal / ethical reasons, but ended up getting hitched to simplify their insurance / financial situation. They were both slightly freaked out by the prospect of marriage, but I haven’t heard any complaints or regrets yet.
2. My friend Tam and her husband are due to have their first baby in September. They’ve shot down each other’s top ten and moved on to rejecting the second ten. The baby has now been sarcastically dubbed Nigel Bob Caius, and Tam is fervently hoping that something will come to mind when they see him.
And PS Metalia, where does Toopweets come from? I’ve been reading your blog for a few weeks now, and the curiosity is killing me!
August 4th, 2007 at 6:25 pm
Dang. That last one was me, being a spaz and screwing up. Sorry!
August 4th, 2007 at 8:39 pm
I’m old fashioned and wanted to get married as far back as I ca remember. My parents’ marriage was rich and loving and though I saw them fight passionately – I saw them love with as much if not more passion. They served each other, adored each other, were the best of friends – and still do/are all those things.
So, I knew I wanted that same thing when I grew up.
And I have it. I see my kids look at us the way I used to look at my parents. They are secure in knowing we are in love, that they are loved by us. We are all the “Sanders” family and that means something to us – we’re in it together – this thing called life.
My opinion is that when marriage is what it should be it creates a strong sense of security in a child.
I wouldn’t recommend marriage until it is the deepest desire of both of your hearts, b/c that is what it’ll take to make it work on the truly crappy days.
And I think a child, as it grows, would want their parents being married, on a subconscious level if nothing else, because it does give a sense of security.
Opinion, internet – opinion.
August 4th, 2007 at 10:04 pm
You know we have spoken of this conversation before…and the conversation continues in different areas of my life. While celebrating being old in Sonoma, 5 single girls spoke of plans.
1 will turn 34 in January and plans on being pregnant by Feb – current bf may or may not be asked to donate.
1 is thinking of marrying her bf with the knowledge that it probably wont last but would prefer to have the children and an ex than to have none of it.
1 is so terrified of being alone she has thrown it all out the window and only asks that the guy is breathing.
1 just bought a house with a bf and is planning on a 2008 marriage and 2009 baby – she is also the youngest.
Then there is me…no clocks ticking.
So I think that it depends on the individual. I think if it is important to you to be married, then you do that first. If you think you can be happy and secure without it, then that is ok, too. But you have to decided what works for YOU.
Um…and pregnancy will really crimp our ability to drink margaritas at noon on Wednesdays. THAT is selfish. Haha.
August 5th, 2007 at 7:55 am
I second Mere’s point that it depends on the couple.
Other random thoughts on the subject based on being married and observing others, married and not, and their marriage/kid issues:
Having a kid is a much bigger committment to each other than getting married.
Kids don’t need married parents, they just need parents who can model love and respect.
As with funerals, an expensive wedding’s usually a waste of money.
p.s. After our visit to San Fran, I fear Mr. W. will want to name our (as yet non-existent) child “Haight-Ashbury.” (And I will constantly mispronounce “Haight”.)
August 5th, 2007 at 8:32 am
I had my son before getting married. And then I stayed unmarried for over a year.
It’s not so bad, you know. My husband-to-be and I didn’t want to force a marriage decision just because of the baby (in the same way we didn’t want to break up or move to Seattle just because of the baby). So, we waited. We really didn’t even talk marriage until our son was six or seven months old; it came up briefly when we learned I was pregnant, and after that it was just kind of a non-issue.
Here’s a hint: it didn’t matter much, either. Yes, we love being married — I like the way you described it, “Like raising a glass of liquor and shouting, ‘Here’s to us and making it through!’” — but it’s not THAT big of a difference.
When you’re unmarried, you have equal rights to your child. (As long as you’re both on the birth certificate, that is.) Just like being married, your rights as parents are shared and equitable unless a judge decrees otherwise. Your responsibilities to the child are the same, too — it’s harder than redneck stereotypes would have you believe for an unmarried parent to skip out on his or her child. Similarly, hospital situations and stuff are often easier than you’d think; hospitals will almost always allow you back with your partner under a “one person at the bedside” rule, and if they won’t, you can always lie. (This is the best advice ever! Woo!) You will need to settle up some power of attorney-type things, but they’re more of a minor inconvenience than a big hassle.
That said… we really do love being married. It feels different. It gives you a little gush of pride to mention “my husband” instead of “my boyfriend.” (Or even worse, “my baby daddy.”) Your wedding day will be one of the most awesome days of your life, hands down. You’ll have that smug little feeling all the time: “Oh, look at us and our ridiculously photogenic nuclear family.” It will make legal issues easier, and it will make you more committed to the relationship. (It’s harder to storm out in a huff when you have to anticlimactically meet with your lawyer to really get the ball rolling.)
So it’s up to you. You certainly don’t need to be married to be a family, to have a baby, or to share legal and medical decisions. You can definitely be committed to and full of love for each other and a child without a ceremony. It’s your life, you know? It’s okay to mix things up and make it however you want. And it’s really nobody else’s business why you picked a certain combination of elements or if you’re ever going to add a marriage certificate to the mix.
August 5th, 2007 at 11:00 pm
Moose, your mom must be on vacation?
August 5th, 2007 at 11:45 pm
We’re not at the same point as you w/r/t children, but I definitely appreciate your position – we both have divorced parents, which has made me (at least) overly cautious in the marriage-planning department (not to mention my own “dominant paradigm” sorts of issues), and it definitely has an impact on major lifestyle and financial decisions for us. And, nervewrackingly, now that we’re the longest-term unmarried couple we know, the question as to when we’ll *ever* tie the knot looms over any conversation we have with anyone, ever.
In any event, my point in commenting is that it’s comforting to read someone else who (a) wants marriage to be meaningful when they unhurriedly arrive there, and (b) is not going to subvert their entire life’s plan just because the knot has not yet been tied.
August 6th, 2007 at 8:03 am
You know handsome and I took our sweet time about getting engaged and are now taking our sweet time about getting married, but it was something we both knew we wanted all along and talked about entirely too often.
It’s been a far to slow journey for most people, but just right for us which I think is how every good relationship goes. At it’s own pace, in it’s own way, married, unmarried, children, no children… so long as it’s a good ride and full of love it’s all just right.
Personally, I wanted to combine our last names and rename ourselves the “McLooks”. I mean that’s fun, but I was vetoed, which then lead me to veto his potential names for children “Hunter” and “Fisher”.
August 6th, 2007 at 8:07 am
That’s a hard question, and one that is ultimately up to you and Mr. Moose.
I think that I fall into OMSH’s camp the most: in my opinion, the number one thing a child needs to know is that his/her parents love each other. That truth profoundly affects a child’s security, all the way into adulthood.
As far as marriage goes — and this is just opinion — I don’t think you should marry simply because you have a child. I also don’t think that marriage should be entered into as something that may be temporary. I think marriage is a committment — possibly the biggest committment of your lives — and should be approached with that mindset. That no matter how tough it gets, you’re committed to each other.
From the little I know about you, I do think you would make a wonderful, fiercely protective and loving parent. And that, my dear, is vastly important.
August 6th, 2007 at 10:32 am
Tough stuff there.
I can give you my two cents, but I have no idea how helpful it will be.
The wedding ceremony part of the whole thing scared me spit-less. So we did a spur of the moment thing (as in me calling him up and saying “Let’s go get hitched next Wed at the Justice of the Peace”) that worked beautifully for us. Looking back – it would have been fun to do something non-traditional like a backyard BBQ wedding. But that would have probably required hog-tying every one of the females in my family to have worked.
Anyway – we lived together for 7 years before getting married and I always thought it wouldn’t make any difference to make it “official”. I was wrong. And I’m not sure I can even quantify that difference. It seemed profound and at the same time amazingly subtle. It’s a little bit of what Velo said and a little bit of suddenly feeling like there’s an unshakable foundation underneath me now. That’s what he gives me.
(Both sets of parents are the till death do us part)
August 6th, 2007 at 10:56 am
Oh, man. I hear you in a big, BIG way. Especially in the “how do I get boyfriend to marry me without having to CONVINCE him because that kind of sucks” way. Years ago, when we talked about buying a house and having a kid without getting married, I thought I’d be okay with it; it’s the commitment and shared lives and responsibilities that I want, not the paperwork and the party, right? Well, yes, but the longer I go without the paperwork, the more I seem to want the last name and the social benefits of marriage. We’ll eventually have to sit down and make a graph detailing pros and cons and weighing how much he doesn’t want it against how much I do. Let me know if you find the secret.
August 6th, 2007 at 11:13 am
I’ve been thinking about your posting for several days wondering how and if to respond. Mostly I have questions. Were you aware as a child that your parents were married and you were a family? Did it make you feel secure? Did your parents love you less when they divorced?
If you choose to not marry and have children and eventually split up, will that change the emotional impact that it has on your children?
If you cannot commit to marriage how can you be sure the commitment to your children is genuine? (Other than that there is no return policy.
Every marriage has rocky spots, some too difficult to overcome, but most can be conquered with a little work. Would either of you be inclined to work less if it’s pretty easy to just split? Don’t we humans often take the easy way out?
I think marriage is more than just tradition. It’s a way of saying we’re committed to this relationship and to the family we will eventually have and we feel strongly enough to make that a legal contract. We hope to hell it lasts forever and we’re taking this step to make sure that neither one of us can bail easily. It says that we choose each other first, our children second and we as a family are a unit that deserves to be defended against all odds.
Don’t let divorces scare you. Yes, they’re not fun, but they shouldn’t be. Be more afraid of choosing a partner for the wrong reasons because that’s were the problems begin.
I wish you both a love that will last forever and beautiful children.
Love, Me
(PS-Can I be an honorary grandmother?)
August 6th, 2007 at 12:33 pm
Okay, all the big questions are just too much for my Monday Morning Head (hey, good band name! Though maybe a little too suggestive…), but I’d like to go on record as saying that I’ve ALWAYS thought it would be a good idea to just PICK a new last name when you got married. I’ve no intention of taking my significant other’s name should the occasion ever present itself (well, not exclusively anyway), but I’m not really keen on the idea of hyphenating, either. So I used to think it would be fun to just pick one from thin air — Kennedy, say! Or Scarborough! — and use that. Then you could all be The Kennedys or The Scarboroughs! I actually know quite a few people who’ve done this and it seems to have worked out okay. I’m considering it. It would have be something cool though — I have a friend whose mother just picked “Watson” as his last name when he was born. FOR NO REASON. I mean honestly, if you had a million last names at your disposal, would you really pick Watson?
(For what it’s worth, you BOTH have excellent last names and I’d be hard-pressed to choose which was cooler. Yours would mean that Fictional Baby was closer to the front of the roll call, though. And that’s always a plus if there’s, like, a fire alarm at school or something.)
August 6th, 2007 at 12:39 pm
Penguin–In response to your inference that not being married makes it easier to split up, I have to point out that the legal stuff is not what makes divorces hard–it’s the shared finances, property, children, and emotional involvement.
August 6th, 2007 at 8:43 pm
Thanks for your input, all! This is why I blog, right here. I’d continue gushing, but I haven’t had enough white wine.
For me, I think I will eventually have to abandon my lists and my reasoning and just see how I feel. Gut instinct is often the best with decisions like these.
Unless you’ve just eaten questionable shrimp.
August 6th, 2007 at 8:59 pm
I didn’t get married until my son was a year old – he was a surprise. We thought about getting married and decided to wait, and then it just felt “right”. But I guess it was easier to not stress since we had eventual marriage plans, so we figured we’d use his last name (it’s way cooler than mine was) and all that.
But you should definitely become the Pirates, because that is awesome.
August 7th, 2007 at 5:06 pm
It seems like in your heart you WANT to be married when you start a family. And that without that, or with ruling it out entirely, the situation is making you uneasy. And there’s probably a good reason for it. I’m big on listening to your instincts–even when the sound is faint.
August 7th, 2007 at 5:08 pm
PS–Don’t know if you ever read Teej’s blog or not, but she’s struggling with the baby or not to baby issue, too.
http://www.smellslikehappy.typepad.com/
August 7th, 2007 at 6:22 pm
Hi! I just found your blog today after seeing so many hilarious photos of you with some of my favourite bloggers at BlogHer and thought I’d take a look. You are hilarious! And smart! And witty!
Good luck with the baby naming. My husband and I fought over names for our child the entire nine months I was pregnant. Even when she was born I tried one last time to beg for the name I had my heart set on, but he refused, even thought I was all sweaty and exhausted from birthing his child from my loins.
As far as the marriage thing goes, I can imagine what a pickle you’re in. You can’t force him to get on the bus, and even if you did you’d feel horrible for the remainder of the ride. I have found contentment and peace in the commitment of marriage and hope you guys can find a happy medium.
First-time commenters aren’t supposed to ramble like this, are they? Gah.
August 8th, 2007 at 10:41 am
I agree with WhyIOughta: “Kids don’t need married parents, they just need parents who can model love and respect.”
That being said, if you feel like marriage is a symbol of your love and respect for each other, then I think your partner should value that. Both mine and Simons’ parents are still happily married after over 40 years, so that may have altered our views. We’re big fans of it and take a great delight in calling each other Husband! or Wife!
Sure, there are tons of reasons why it’s a weird institution and damn the man and social pressure, and all that. But those reasons not to have nothing to do with the heart. You can’t argue with the heart.
August 9th, 2007 at 9:27 am
Strangely enough, I too am thinking of children sans marriage. For long and complicated reasons including my parents untimely divorce and subsequent issues. Also because my mother felt the need to get married when she found out she was pregnant with me because “A child deserves a family.”
I wish you could have seen the ‘WTF??’ look on my face when she said that.
I’m not about to go on a diatribe about different types of families but I do believe that a ‘family’ doesn’t have to be what society deems to be the norm. That said, I’m gunning for adoption first and then biological.
And I’m nowhere near procreation, but I like to think ahead.
August 9th, 2007 at 2:06 pm
If I wanted to be married but dreaded the planning and cost and stress of a wedding, then don’t have one. Do what S did, or just head down to city hall. As much as I loved our wedding, it wasn’t some big deal for me in the moment saying the I DOs. I felt married (with big denouement preceded by the Law & Order DUN DUNs) on two occasions: 1) the first time I referred to JB as ‘my husband’ – I actually teared up a little bit, and 2) when I went out for dinner with an ex-gf and her partner and when introducing me she said “she’s married (long pause) to a MAN.”
I think the biggest issue to be sorted out is what do you want. And then asking seriously whether or not you will both be happy with whatever it is you choose. Is the important thing the relationship commitment and you don’t really care if you get married? Or do you need both relationship and marriage?
And I vote for the Pirates, definitely! JB and I almost chose Hilton as it combined letters from both of our last names (this was pre-Paris, thank God we didn’t). We both hyphenated to MyLast-HisLast. Although I’m glad we did, I wonder what the next generation will do. What if our hypothetical hyphenate married some other hyphenate. 4 last names? That is crazy talk! Pirates is the way to go. Definitely.
August 9th, 2007 at 2:10 pm
While you wouldn’t think it from the above, I am a fan of subject-verb agreement so consider that first sentence to read:
If I wanted to be married but dreaded the… wedding, then I wouldn’t have one.
August 10th, 2007 at 8:37 am
I’ve always thought an offbeat ‘love ceremony’ would be nice (says the hippie in me) and then you could always sign that little piece of paper to help with the legalities of having a child. But hey, don’t listen to me. I’ve been with the same guy for 12 years and we still haven’t taken the plunge and we don’t know if we want to have children. I just want an excuse to have a big ass party with all my friends. Ha ha.
August 11th, 2007 at 10:50 pm
My friends and I like to play The Stallone Game. Since Sylvester is like one of the goofiest names ever, and it is strangely the name of one of the like manliest tough guys on screen, we just play with whatever names we could that would be worse than Sylvester. Bob Stallone is a pretty funny name, but at the moment I’m favoring Pontius Stallone. It’s not even close to the ridiculous beauty of Caligula Urp, but it’s a fun game. Good luck with this baby/marriage stuff, btw.
August 12th, 2007 at 5:31 pm
I love this idea, and the conversation thread. I don’t think I have anything particularly “new” to add to the discussion, except she could be called “Cali.” Which is sort of pretty, I think. The “Urp” is still awesomely ridiculous beyond repair. ; )
August 13th, 2007 at 11:27 am
I am such a scaredy-cat that I have waited a week to post my comment on this trail here — hopefully Moose you are the only one who reads it. But I have to say, all the feedback you are getting is WONDERFUL. It is so true that all children need to know is that their parents love and respect each other. I think they could give a flying zweiback about anything else. Also, heart, gut, whatever you call it, listen to your own voice and encourage Mr. Moose to do the same. Maybe the whole “disrupting the dominant paradigm” thing is a very convincing (to him) cover for fear or any other number of totally normal emotions. Honestly the best advice anyone ever gave me was to work really hard at being clear, clear about what you want and how you feel. And paying attention when friends/lovers/parents are being clear with you (about what THEY want and how THEY feel). I find that so much gets resolved that way — not so much in terms of “getting one’s way” but in terms of understanding.
August 29th, 2007 at 2:35 pm
We aren’t married, although we have two kids in two years. We had talked about it, before I got pregnant, but sometimes fate jumps the gun. Then baby one and baby two took over the priorities. They both have his last name but my last name as a second middle name. Bulky, but less so than a six syllable hyphenate.
On one hand, I don’t think being married or not really should make a difference, it’s just a legality, right? But on the other hand, I think it just _does_ make a difference on some deep subconscious level. He has called me his wife for years, but I won’t call him my husband. It just doesn’t feel right without that for-real marriage. And without that for-real marriage, somewhere in the back of my head, there’s that little thought that I could just leave if it comes down to it.
He just asked me to marry him for the first time, not in a “when we get married” kind of statement but the actual question, and now I feel like I can call him my fiancee. It feels odd, it feels different, just that little change.
I hate that whole huge princess wedding thing, and will probably just have one of those backyard barbecue weddings… but I do have to say, one of the reasons to have a wedding is to get cool kitchen stuff. Does that make me a bad person?